Bishop Carlton Pearson Declares “Satan Does Not Exist”:
gospel | Mar 30, 2009 | Comments 82
Just when you thought that the controversy about “the Gospel of inclusion” had settled down and drifted into the pages of oblivion, it is appearing to be making a comeback.
On Thursday night of this past week, Bishop Carlton Pearson appeared on ABC’s Nightline and reaffirmed his theological position of several years ago about the “Doctrine of Inclusion“.
More specifically, Bishop Pearson declared that the historic Christian teaching which suggest that there is a Satan is false and erroneous. “Over the years, the church has borrowed many myths” suggested Pearson.
Bishop Carlton Pearson was joined by Deepok Chopra and faced off against Mark Driscoll and Annie Lobert to discuss whether or not Satan really exists.
A few years ago, Bishop CarltonPearson appeared before a panel of Pentecostal clerics, led by Bishop J. Delano Ellis, the Joint College of African American Pentecostal Bishops, who concluded that the teachings of Bishop Carlton Pearson represented modern day heresy. Since then, Bishop Carlton Pearson has gone from preaching to thousands to preaching to hundreds. The large mega-church building that he called home for so many years he has vacated and now conducts services in an Episcopal Church located in downtown Tulsa. It should be noted that the theology of the Episcopal tradition includes the Doctrine of Universal Reconciliation, which is the more historic name that of the Doctrine of Inclusion that Pearson now espouses.
The fact that the debate is airing on a major media outlet like ABC and a mainstream television program like “Nightline” serves as an indication of how fertile the topic is and to what degree the general public has an appetite for this kind of subject matter. In an expose a few years ago, Bishop Pearson closed his interview by saying “in the end you win”. One has to wonder if this is not an effort of Bishop Pearson to bring that prediction to pass.
We invite you to use the link listed below and watch the debate for yourself and then return to this blog page and record your comments. We are anxious to hear from you.
Source: Gospel Today Magazine
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HEADING OFF AT THE PASS AN APPARENT MISINTERPRETATION (that might be used by some fundamentalists, who are opposed to the belief in universal salvation, even as a tenative possibility) .
One issue that it would be good to clarify, in regard to the possibility that there maybe a universal salvation one day through Jesus for all people …is the claim made by some fundamentalists —especially those of a Calvinist sort …which alleges that God has somehow predestined some people to be in the dark, and not understand the message of salvation .
Some may wish to claim the verse in Matthew 13:14-15 that states of some people , ‘And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
13:15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them ‘,
supposedly meaning that some have been predestined not to receive the message …
However, that interpretation is NOT a good one… in light of how apparently the ancient targum (notes that were written in ancient times as footnotes to the Old Testament books) on the parallel verse in Isaiah… wherefore the verse in the gospels is borrowed from… use a word ‘unless’ , instead of lest …meaning that it was NOT predestined for their eyes to wax dull of seeing and ears go dull of hearing , but , instead, that they could see and hear the message IF they were to choose to want to …
The word ‘lest’ has the force in the apparent targum commenting on Isaiah of signifying not that the persons were predestined to not see and hear the message …as some have interpreting it ..but instead that the persons could want to want to .
The parallel verse in Isaiah 6:10 which contains the following phrase , ‘Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.’, is more likely given as a prediction of what some of the people would do ….and NOT that God had predestined them to not understand .
The statement in Matthew that , ‘unto you it is given to understand the mysteries of the kingdom , but to them it is not given should NOT be interpreted that God intended to keep the people from understanding what Jesus taught (as some fundamentalists have been inclined to interpret it ) but rather , instead , that some of the listeners were simply unwilling to slow down and study the message and they *could have* understood, IF they had chosen to put their minds to understanding it .
Hello Forum People,
I would like to thank ‘J’ for the following comments that was posted on April 9, 2010 at 11:52 pm
“Mr Cevallos, I do welcome the posts you post. It is good to see some people posting here that are looking into the matter of the Bible and Jesus more deeply than the fundamentalists do . I look forward to continuing the exchange of posts …”. I, too, look forward to exchanging with you meaningful and researched data that will enlighten you and me and possibly the rest of group in this forum..
I will use my time in this forum to review some things that have been said by ‘J’
To J,
You began your discourse on April 7, 2010 quoting the book of Ezekiel 22:30, then you gave your explanation of what that verse was about and your explanation was correct, but then you try to make an argument as to why we should try to “persuade the God, who runs the universe…” and I must say that the answer to your question is a big NO. You want an elaborate reason for this answer? That will be for another topic, right now we still have this satan dude to discuss.
Your use of the following verse in John 10:16 with regards to your argument that this verse applies to Bishop Pearson is very weak. The two groups that Yeshua was talking about were these: Jews and other Nations of that time. The Apostles went to the Jews first and then, with the help of Paul and Barnabes, went to the Nations(Asia Minor,Greece,Italy…)
The verse from John does not apply to what Bishop Pearson is doing. What he is doing is telling the world things that the world already knew and that is this “satan dude is pure fiction”.
You mentioned and I quote “Though we as Christians do have a duty to conduct the great commission mentioned in Matthew to ‘Go teach all nations… ”
Where did you get the Idea that this commission being talked about, not only in Matthew but also in Luke, is a commission directed at you and me or all of us now at this time? Can you please read, in its entirety, the whole book of Matthew and Luke. Get a feel for what was happening at that time and why it was becoming urgent for the handful of Jews that had been chosen by Yeshua to bring this information to the Jews and then later to the Nations. After you’re done reading Luke, begin reading the Acts of the Apostles and follow their story as they are first, filled with holy spirit and then they begin their ministry. Follow the stories being told by Paul to several congregations and people of that era. Listen as Paul, after years of missionary work, explains that this commission that was given out to them, had now run it’s course:
Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world.
Rom 10:14-18 14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[g]
16But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”[h] 17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. 18But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”[i
Colossians 1:3-6 3We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, 4because we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love you have for all the saints— 5the faith and love that spring from the hope that is stored up for you in heaven and that you have already heard about in the word of truth, the gospel 6that has come to you. All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and understood God's grace in all its truth.
Colossians 1:21-23 21Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[f] your evil behavior. 22But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
Let’s review: Matthew 28:16-20
The Great Commission
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them…
Notice that Yeshua came to the eleven disciples and told them of this commission. Yeshua was putting this guys in charge of taking the message to the people and beyond. You mentioned the book of Acts previously, so I can assume that you have read it?
Do you recall the very first chapter of Act? Let’s take a look, book of Acts, chapter 1:
1In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. 3After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized with[a] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
6So when they met together, they asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
“He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
Yeshua commanded that his apostles preach the gospel in all the world: Paul said it was done. Yeshua said to preach the gospel to every creature: Paul said it was done.
No matter what we might understand the “the end” to be, it was clearly predicted to come immediately after the gospel had been preached “in all the world.” Since the gospel was preached in all the world by A.D.60, then the end must have followed soon after.
How do we explain this? How could the apostles have reached the whole world in less than 30 years from the time they were commissioned? They didn’t have radio or television, they usually walked, rode donkeys, or perhaps horses at best, and they didn’t even know about such places as the Americas. Where have we gone wrong on this issue? The answer is simple: we have misunderstood the Greek word ‘oikoumene’ which as been translated “world” in many English versions of the Bible. When we use the word ‘world’ we might mean the whole planet earth, but Yeshua, Paul and others in the first century mean something much less. If they were referring to the globe, then Paul’s claims are outrageous and ridiculous. To those in the first century, the ‘world’ was not the globe we call planet earth, it was the Roman Empire. When Yeshua spoke of the gospel going to the whole world, he was not speaking to the globe perspective of people living almost 2000 years into the future. There is more here to discuss, but because this is not the central theme of our discussion, I will leave this topic for another day.
Let’s talk about satan:
I have posted comments with regards to the evolution of the word satan throughout the centuries, please refer to comments posted to Victoria Sellers on march 25, 2010 at 4:11pm and on March 26, 2010 at 4:00 pm Please review those comments.
J, after analyzing your comments “I’m still considering the prospect that Satan may be a symbolic allegorical figure, that symbolizes the energy towards evil in humanity”’ it is very clear that you already have come to that conclusion “…that satan may be a symbolic , allegorical figure”.
You don’t need any more information that will lead you towards the enlightenment that you show as possessing. I can clearly see that you obviously don’t believe in the boogie man(satan).
I do expect some forum members to post comments as to why I’m wrong with regards to this great commission subject.
For those that are going to post, please make sure that you’ve done an extensive research about the subject. I will now if you have done an extensive research by the information that you will post.
OK, satan just showed up and we’re going to go and play basketball. He is feeling down right now – you know, people are not believing in him – and I’m going to try to brighten his day by beating the crap out of him in basketball.
By all.
MR CEVALLOS POSTED :Hello Forum People,
I would like to thank ‘J’ for the following comments that was posted on April 9, 2010 at 11:52 pm
“Mr Cevallos, I do welcome the posts you post. It is good to see some people posting here that are looking into the matter of the Bible and Jesus more deeply than the fundamentalists do . I look forward to continuing the exchange of posts …”. I, too, look forward to exchanging with you meaningful and researched data that will enlighten you and me and possibly the rest of group in this forum..
Response: You are again quite welcome , sir. Glad to see that I’m not the only
NON-fundamentalist here who has an interest in Christianity .
I will use my time in this forum to review some things that have been said by ‘J’
MR.CEVALLOS POSTED : To J,
You began your discourse on April 7, 2010 quoting the book of Ezekiel 22:30, then you gave your explanation of what that verse was about and your explanation was correct, but then you try to make an argument as to why we should try to “persuade the God, who runs the universe…” and I must say that the answer to your question is a big NO. You want an elaborate reason for this answer? That will be for another topic, right now we still have this satan dude to discuss.
Response: Okay, fair enough , we can hold the discussion on how to do exegesis of Ezekiel 22:30 in abeyance for the time being …
MR.CEVALLOS POSTED : Your use of the following verse in John 10:16 with regards to your argument that this verse applies to Bishop Pearson is very weak. The two groups that Yeshua was talking about were these: Jews and other Nations of that time. The Apostles went to the Jews first and then, with the help of Paul and Barnabes, went to the Nations(Asia Minor,Greece,Italy…)
RESPONSE: I have heard that argument that claims that the other sheep referenced by Jesus in John 10: 16 before , are merely llimited to Jewsih beleivers and later Gentile converts to Christianity and I have yet to see what exegetical or hermenuetic evidence there is for that interpretation ?
How do we know that Jesus was merely referring to Gentile converts in John 10:16 , and not perhaps to people in other religions or people with no explicit religious affiliation who may be spiritually influenced by Jesus without realizing it ?
One interesting anecdote to consider is that the pre-
christian tribes of Mexico had a tradition that they were visited by a man they named Quetzcoatal …who reportedly… according to the chroniclers of the time… had teachings uncannily similar to the teachings of Jesus .
Also some of the ancient Celtic chronicles claim that the Celtic seers of the British isles had visions of the crucifixions of Jesus even before the missionaries brought the fuller tale of it …
MR.CEVALLOS POSTED :The verse from John does not apply to what Bishop Pearson is doing. What he is doing is telling the world things that the world already knew and that is this “satan dude is pure fiction”.
RESPONSE: Well , I realize that such a possible interpretation of John 10:16 is a separate issue from the proclamations of Bishop Pearson as to the putative nonexistence of Satan . However, I thought I’d mention it since some fundamentalists are so quick to make the weird claim that if someone affirms that a nonchristian can be saved through Jesus that somehow the person who affirms that is somehow not a true Christian or a so-called “heretic” (even though the bible does not state that such a position is heretical …despite the attempts of fundamentalists to “read between the lines” ..use that “it ‘s implied” razamatazz..as they often do when they cannot find explicit scriptural support for some doctrine they endorse) .
You mentioned and I quote “Though we as Christians do have a duty to conduct the great commission mentioned in Matthew to ‘Go teach all nations… ”
MR.CEVALLOS POSTED :Where did you get the Idea that this commission being talked about, not only in Matthew but also in Luke, is a commission directed at you and me or all of us now at this time?
RESPONSE: Well , I thought that through apostolic succession is was passed on to the church …
MR.CEVALLOS POSTED :Can you please read, in its entirety, the whole book of Matthew and Luke.
RESPONSE: But, sir, I have . I love the gospels
MR.CEVALLOS POSTED :Get a feel for what was happening at that time and why it was becoming urgent for the handful of Jews that had been chosen by Yeshua to bring this information to the Jews and then later to the Nations. After you’re done reading Luke, begin reading the Acts of the Apostles and follow their story as they are first, filled with holy spirit and then they begin their ministry. Follow the stories being told by Paul to several congregations and people of that era. Listen as Paul, after years of missionary work, explains that this commission that was given out to them, had now run it’s course:
RESPONSE: Reading the subsequent lines below , I must say you do present an interesting and *somewhat* plausible argument I must reflect on .
However, I wonder if it should be fenced about with some caveats …
MR.CEVALLOS POSTED :Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world.
Rom 10:14-18 14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[g]
16But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”[h] 17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. 18But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”[i
Colossians 1:3-6 3We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, 4because we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love you have for all the saints— 5the faith and love that spring from the hope that is stored up for you in heaven and that you have already heard about in the word of truth, the gospel 6that has come to you. All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and understood God's grace in all its truth.
Colossians 1:21-23 21Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[f] your evil behavior. 22But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
Let’s review: Matthew 28:16-20
The Great Commission
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them…
Notice that Yeshua came to the eleven disciples and told them of this commission. Yeshua was putting this guys in charge of taking the message to the people and beyond. You mentioned the book of Acts previously, so I can assume that you have read it?
RESPONSE: I have …
MR. CEVALLOS POSTED : Do you recall the very first chapter of Act?
RESPONSE: Yes, the gist of it .
Mr.CEVALLOS POSTED : Let’s take a look, book of Acts, chapter 1:
1In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. 3After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized with[a] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
6So when they met together, they asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
“He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
Yeshua commanded that his apostles preach the gospel in all the world: Paul said it was done. Yeshua said to preach the gospel to every creature: Paul said it was done.
No matter what we might understand the “the end” to be, it was clearly predicted to come immediately after the gospel had been preached “in all the world.” Since the gospel was preached in all the world by A.D.60, then the end must have followed soon after.
RESPONSE: Well, it is the position of Preterism that the end of days either took place in A.D. 70 or according to some preterists in the first decade or so of the second century . A number of Christians including some of the early church fathers were preterists .
MR.CEVALLOS POSTED :How do we explain this? How could the apostles have reached the whole world in less than 30 years from the time they were commissioned? They didn’t have radio or television, they usually walked, rode donkeys, or perhaps horses at best, and they didn’t even know about such places as the Americas. Where have we gone wrong on this issue? The answer is simple: we have misunderstood the Greek word ‘oikoumene’ which as been translated “world” in many English versions of the Bible. When we use the word ‘world’ we might mean the whole planet earth, but Yeshua, Paul and others in the first century mean something much less. If they were referring to the globe, then Paul’s claims are outrageous and ridiculous. To those in the first century, the ‘world’ was not the globe we call planet earth, it was the Roman Empire. When Yeshua spoke of the gospel going to the whole world, he was not speaking to the globe perspective of people living almost 2000 years into the future. There is more here to discuss, but because this is not the central theme of our discussion, I will leave this topic for another day.
RESPONSE: Yes, I have seen that explanation of the term world as meaning the Roman Empire and I am earnestly interested in further elaborations you might present concerning that in upcoming posts .
MR.CEVALLOS POSTED :Let’s talk about satan:
I have posted comments with regards to the evolution of the word satan throughout the centuries, please refer to comments posted to Victoria Sellers on march 25, 2010 at 4:11pm and on March 26, 2010 at 4:00 pm Please review those comments.
RESPONSE: I’ve read them and apparently learned some new information from that exchange . The matter of the census does present a vexing problem for typical fundamentalist views on Satan …
MR.CEVALLOS POSTED :J, after analyzing your comments “I’m still considering the prospect that Satan may be a symbolic allegorical figure, that symbolizes the energy towards evil in humanity”’ it is very clear that you already have come to that conclusion “…that satan may be a symbolic , allegorical figure”.
You don’t need any more information that will lead you towards the enlightenment that you show as possessing. I can clearly see that you obviously don’t believe in the boogie man(satan).
RESPONSE: Well I did use the term ‘may’ indicating that I am open to the possibility that Satan may be a symbolic figure for the evil that men do (and think), yet I still consider the possibility that there may be instead some para-physical sentient agent that we might term a ‘fallen angel’ named Satan ..although I wonder what the specific ontology of such an agent would be …
I’m willing to study both scenarios and try to weigh them both ..
It is possible that the terms for devils and demonic possession referenced in the Gospels and Acts, may have been ancient nomenclature for the phenomenon of mental disturbance …perhaps even a sort of mental disturbance / mental derangement with a telekenetic (if there is telekenis) element .
It could be that perhaps Satan and demons are some sort of evil energy beings …in the Star Trek saga and in speculative physics it is postulated that there are what are called energy beings made of energy without being embodied in a solid substrate . Perhaps Satan and demons are the energy equivalent of computer viruses and if the brains neuro-chemical electrical wiring can be likened to something like unto a computer virus in the neural apparatus of the brain ?
One of the fascinating topics I seek to ask the fundamentalists —especially fundamentalists of the premillenial dispensational sort —is wouldn’t it be great if Satan (IF Satan is a being) were to decide to choose NOT to fulfil the bad activities that are (given a futurist interpretation) predicted in Revelation and so on ? What would God have to lose –(if for a moment we accept the premise that there is a conscious fallen angel named Satan …holding in abeyance the thesis that he does not exist)…IF Satan were to choose to refuse to fulfil the predictions of what he is going to do ?
So seldom do they address the focus of that question head on . Usually , they just sidestep the issue by saying something to the upshot of , “well Revelation says he is going to fulfill those activities predicted …like sponsoring a BEAST leader a tribulation..’ .But if Satan has free will he could choose to REFUSE to fulfil the predictions .
Perhaps Satan, IF Satan were an actual fallen angel , (and again let’s hold off the contrary thesis so the following line of dialectic can proceed) , would wise up and realize that he could dissappoint many of the apocalyptic fundamentalists by refusing to do the bad deeds predicted with the dispensational interpretation of Revelation …for one gets the impression hearing and reading many of the pundits of fundamentalists who are “prophecy buffs” and like to pontificate on the so called “last days”, or end times… that many of them have a weird voyeuristic tendency to look forward to Satan doing all those activities that they predict like sponsoring an ANTI-Christ / Beast ! Wouldn’t it be great if Satan *refused* to fullfil the prediction of bad events and said to the fundamentalists …well you are not going to get the armageddon you have been waiting for and looking forward to as if it were entertainment for you ?
That’s a darn good question that seldom gets asked the apocalyptic fundamentalists !
It illumines some fascinating notions about axiology and theology to ask that question .
And if all things are possible to God and Satan is a fallen angel then wouldn’t it be possible for God to perhaps persuade Satan to choose not to do the bad activities predicted of him (given the dispensational intepretation) .
Some fundamentalists may counter and say , well Satan has been bad for so long he has seared his conscience . Well, couldn’t he then un-sear his conscience —especially if God were to facilitate that ?
Some give as a peripheral reply to the question that Satan could never be forgiven or taken back by God (bear with me) and he knows that..Well, even so…if Satan is smart and crafty like the fundamentalists are wont to claim maybe he would find a certain consolation in deciding *not* to engage in the war …thereby even if he cannot avoid getting dammed he could still satisfy the curiousity as to what would happen if he were to make it so that he didn’t participate in any tribulation or armageddon ….
MR.CEVALLOS POSTED : I do expect some forum members to post comments as to why I’m wrong with regards to this great commission subject.
RESPONSE : Well let’s hope they present linear point counterpoint arguments instead of glossing over the specifics as many fundamentalists often do !
MR.CEVALLOS POSTED :For those that are going to post, please make sure that you’ve done an extensive research about the subject. I will now if you have done an extensive research by the information that you will post.
OK, satan just showed up and we’re going to go and play basketball. He is feeling down right now – you know, people are not believing in him – and I’m going to try to brighten his day by beating the crap out of him in basketball
Response: Laughs …Well maybe you could teach him that game that is similar to basketball called ‘horse’ !
I immensely look forward to further discourse with you , sir.
ADDENTUM : ARE WE TO BELIVE THAT GOD ALLOWS EVEN A *PYRRHIC* VICTORY FOR SATAN ?
DISCALIMER FOR
Mr.Cevallos ,
The present post is an interesting line of questioning with the fundamentalists at the present message board .
Like I indicated before, I am open to the possibility and arguments you wish to present that Satan is merely an allegory …but if he is not …the following question(s) are interesting from a dialectical standpoint .
THE ESSAY
Some fundamentalists claim that Satan knows that he is going to be defeated and just wants to get as many people as he can to be influenced by him and get dammed to some sort of endless “hell” with him . They claim that lost souls that he can influence into getting dammed …are like unto trophies that Satan has won so that he can get some sort of thrill knowing that he can take people to the hell with him .
But if Satan can get people to be dammed along with him then he has one something …given that premise that the people who get dammed are like unto “Satan’s trophies” .
So if we accept that scenario then the question arises would God be content with a general victory against Satan …yet one which allows Satan something of a PARTIAL victory ..where he gets a little bit of what he wants in the end …the little bit being achieving the goal of getting people to join him in the place where he is banished to ?
It seems quite odd to accept the scenario that God would allow Satan even a PARTIAL victory ..even if he is generally defeated and does not get a complete victory .
If Satan is able to get some people to join him in some place of misery and thus gains any *even a few* souls that could be likened to trophies …then Satan has won something ..a sort of Pyrrhic victory .
Which would be more pleasing to God : (A) a state of affairs where Satan does not get any person to join him in damnation forever …and all persons freely choose to repent or (B) a state of affairs where some repent and some don’t and Satan has the PARTIAL victory of getting some souls to go to the “hellish” place with him forever ?
IF state of affairs (A) is more pleasing to God than state of affairs (B) , then how would God not experience at least some final dissappointment with the outcome of history …if state of affairs (b) turns out to be the actual outcome ?
How can there not be final disappointment for God if the state of affairs that he would most prefer to happen doesn’t in the end happen ?
Hoping that if any fundamentalists, here in the present message board, attempt an reply they will focus on the specifics of the questions and NOT gloss the specifics over, by giving some usual “Big Picture ” spiel that leaves loose ends regarding the specific details …
KL POSTED
eople criticizing this Bishop and calling him antichrist no doubt have good intentions.
RESPONSE: It is dubious that they all have good intentions .
Calling Bishop Carleton Pearson a “heretic” or antichrist or false teacher …is quite a weird accusation ..The outlook of such ultra fundamentalists is so FAR FROM and DIIFERENT FROM the outlook of Jesus in the sermon on the Mount …
Well people any new responses to the questions shown above ?
Well wouldn’t it be good if Satan *chose* NOT to do what the dispensational interpretations of the book of Revelation predict he will do ?
Wouldn’t it be a good state of affairs if Satan did *not* sponsor a Beast, did *not* promote a tribulation , did *not* foster any armageddon and so on ?
What would be lost if Satan were to *freely choose* NOT to do what the dispensationalist interpretation of Revelation were to predict that he will do ?
Hello Forum Denizens,
I believe that this forum has just about run out of gas. I’ve been waiting for someone other than J to post comments about why they believe in the myth they call ‘satan’, but no one else is coming to bat for satan. Are there any more satan believers out there?
Quick shout out to ‘J’ please stop using the word “IF” in your sentences(exa:if Satan *chose* NOT to do; if Satan did *not* sponsor a Beast; if Satan were to *freely choose*.
If this satan did exist, he would already be crawling up your behind. But the fact remains, this myth does not exist, therefore it is not crawling up your behind.
I don’t know about you people, but it has already been several weeks since I started posting on this forum and I have yet to run into this satan. satan used to come over and play basketball, but he does not show up around here anymore. does anyone know why?
Hello Mr.Cevallos ,
Satan no longer shows up for basketball ?
Something you might find humorous
Wallace Stevens the poet, wrote , “The death of Satan was a tragedy / For the imagination. A capital / Negation destroyed him in his tenement / And, with him, many blue phenomena,”
I have no clue as to why Wallace Stevens thought the death of Satan was a tragedy for the imagination …or where he was going with the poem ….
But seriously, I have been wanting to engage the fundamentalists to think about these matters in a deeper amnner .
What puzzles to no end is that they (in some ambivalent way) seem to give the impression think that perhaps God somehow requires Satan to do bad stuff in order to accomplish the agenda God has in mind …which is weird .
One of the questions that came to me one afternoon back in 1989 , when i was thinking about the dispensationalist notions about a person called the Beast one day soon taking power and thinking how ominous it would be if that ever happened .
Then at the time I thought of a good question to ask the dispensational fundamentalists was the following : If Jesus died for everyone (at the time I did not know that the Calvinists do not believe that Jesus died to atone for the sins of every person in histroy , but only for the elect…though many fundamentalists are not Calvinist) then , did Jesus die to take away the sins of the man called the Beast (Mr.666) ?
And if so why would God have Jesus die for the sins of the man who would be called the Beast, if there was NO chance that the man called the Beast 666 would ever repent ?
Why wouldn’t God just count him out of the list of people who sins were atoned for on the cross , if such sacrifice would never be efficient in getting the Beast or Antichrist to become saved ?
So much of dispensational Fundamentalist eschatology just doesn’t make any sense …
There are the preterists who argue that the prophetic books including Revelation redfer to the events of the 1st and early second century and not to the era in which we live or any future era at all, yet that is another argument .
I must ask the fundamentalists these questions . Very seldom though do I get a direct answer . Often they have a weird , and obtuse tendency to respond to it with answers that are peripheral to the focus of the questions …just glossing it over …
Now that the posts from them have dropped off, what is one to make of that .Don’t they have any tenative explanations…that could directly address the questions ?
The Tim L Haye crowd has used the notions in dispensational eschatology and Satan as fodder for lurid, PSEUDO-christian , voyeuristic entertainment …aka the weird ‘Left Behind ‘ series …
Hello J,
It seems to me that we are the only two discussing this matter of such great importance(lol).
You asked a question with regards to a poem that you read. you said that you had no clue as to why Wallace Stevens thought that the death of satan was a tragedy for the imagination.
The reason why is a tragedy is this: since this myth does not exist, it is tragic in the sense that certain people(priest,pastors,reverends,pope…) can’t put the fear of that in your mind and your mind no longer accepts the idea that those bozos want to implant in your mind. Since there is no satan, then it follows that there is nothing to imagine.
Also, Hollywood took this satan myth and created a whole new set of adventures featuring this mythical creature(the omen, exorcist, nightmare on elm street,rosemary’s baby, the witches of eastwick…) what else is left to imagine.
J, you said that you have read the following books: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts of the Apostles and the letters that Paul Wrote, did you read in any of those books things that pertain to us? is there anything in those books that clearly talks about this generation and the events that will unfold? Please show me where you find things that pertain to us.
The Calvinists are not the only ones that believe that Yeshua died for the sins of the elect and not for the sins of mankind as a whole. If you read carefully the books that I mentioned above, you will clearly see that Yeshua is simply going to save a chosen few of his Jewish brothers(144,000 and a great crowd from the nations of that period). This notion that Yeshua came to die for you is so totally ridiculous, I’m glad that you brought this up. We can now finally put this satan myth to rest and talk about the reasons why Yeshua was sent to the house of Judah and Israel.
I’m looking forward to discussing this new subject. J I hope that you have a lot to say about this subject.
Hey! look who just showed up, satan. Where in hell have you been satan? everyone’s been looking for you. What happened to you? you look like you’ve seen a ghost. Oh, you’re a little under the weather, here take these cyanide pills it will make you feel better. Looks like satan is feeling much better now. I’m going to the basketball court and I’m taking satan with me to kick his ass. Later.
Mr.Cevallos ,
Thank you for the commentary on the Wallace Stevens poem .
The book of Revelation refers to 144, 000 that are sealed with the seal of God in their foreheads , it does NOT claim that the atonement is only for those 144, 000 .
Anything in Matthew , Luke,Mark, and John that pertains to us today you ask ?
Well plenty of stuff.
The Sermon On The Mount and its amazing ethical insights and profundities for one .
And the prayer of Jesus in John 17:20 ,
‘Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word’.
That process is ongoing over time isn’t it inasmuch as the people in the 1st century passed the message on to other generations and on and on throughout the past 2,000 years .
Shouldn’t we be fishers of men today (or fishers of people to use more gender inclusive language) .
Shouldn’t we bring the message of Jesus / Yeshua of Nazareth today—helping them out of the dark sea of mundane living and offer them the good news that they can hunger and thirst for righteousness and then be filled ?
Shouldn’t we follow him today who sought to bring about a transformation of all creation into a utopia: where the meek inherit the earth and delight themselves in the abundance of peace ?
Hello J,
That’s it! The sermon on the mount and the prayer of Jesus in John 17:20?
No. We shouldn’t be “fishers of men today” and No. we shouldn’t bring the message(what message?).
J, you do understand that Jesus was instructing the crowds and his disciples that there with him “Matthew 5:1-2 1Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2and he began to teach them saying: 3″Blessed are the poor in spirit,for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted…
It’s a good message that he gave those that were around him. They really needed to heed these advices. Those people were in a live or die situation. On the one hand, if they chose not to listen to the messiah they will be certainly killed along with the rest of israel(70ad destruction of israel) on the other hand, if they believe this Jew, they will be given a key to the kingdom of Yahweh which is in the heavenly realms.
It’s very easy to take things out of context for the purpose of explaining why one does things. The church and other cults do the same thing to get you to believe in them.
The story of the gospels and the acts of the apostles and the letters of paul are what they are, stories of events that took place way back then. A lot of what’s been written in the bible has been taken out of context by just about every religious company out there.
You said that you have read all the books that you mentioned before, how is it that you have not notice that everything that was written pertain to what was going on then.
You are wrong about believing that this Jesus sought to bring about a transformation of all creation into a utopia. I don’t think so. He was sent to the lost sheep of Israel.
J, when you read the bible, try not to read it like the rest of the world does. They read the bible by going from one verse on one book on to another verse on another book and that’s how they know the bible. I hope that you are really reading the story and not taking things out of context when you are reading it.
Well, Mr.Cevallos, I fear that even though you are NOT a fundamentalist, you are doing what I have noticed a lot of fundamentalists do using the word ‘context’ as a catch all , open ended term …
Jesus had *progressive revelation* happen to him . At first he thought that his mission was limited to the lost sheep of the house of Israel alone. But then there grew a dawning realization in him that he was to be the sort of Messiah who was to be not only for Israel , but also a ‘light unto the Gentiles’ –to use a turn of phrase from the Old Testament Jewish prophetic writings .
He himself came to a fuller knowledge of the role he had in bringing order to all creation –in encountering people like the Greek woman whose daughter was reporeted to have been possessed with a devil (perhaps she was mentally disturbed and the reference to a devil was but the “folk psychology” of the era that the verse makes concession to) .
It is interesting the polite rebuttal that the woman says to Jesus when Jesus is at first seemingly not inclined to fulfil her reequest ,
‘Yes but the dogs eat of the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table ‘.
He also healed the servant of the Roman centurian who had financed the building of the synagogue, and marvelled when he heard of how the Roman Gentile centurian’s servant ,
‘I have not found such faith , not in Israel ‘ .
Yes, I to am inclined to also think that (much or perhaps all) of the Olivet Discourse when Jesus refers to a tribulation probably referred to the fall of Jerusalem to the Roman siege in A.D. 70 .
Nonetheless, the teachings of the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew , Mark, and Luke and the Christology found in John is just as valid and perennial a truth for today and all ages of human history as it was then . Jesus said ,
‘Heaven and earth shall pass away , but my words shall not pass away’ .
The teachings of Jesus which contain such ethical profundities , ethical profundities that are so sadly often glossed over by both Protestant Fundamentalism which is so preoccupied with crude notions of heaven and hell …the afterlife, should be studied . For Jesus was and is a figure with great conceptually subtle insights into ethics …there is so much in his teachings that is seldom explored .
And Jesus did come to transform all creation , like Isaiah and John the Baptizer before him , he came to get people to , ‘prepare ye the highway of the Lord . Make his paths straight ‘.
Prepare and make are active verbs , not passive verbs . They signify that we are *not* to wait around waiting for some apocalyptic Divine Intervention from out of the sky (like the dispensationalists mistakenly claim) , but instead to manifest the holy in the here and now…to bring the sacramental into daily life…to act to change the world . Jesus was indeed a culture jammer and an adversary of the status quo .
He taught that there can be an inbreaking into history of a kind of holiness when people set out to bring it about .
‘What ye bind is bound in heaven ‘/’what you loose is loosed in heaven ‘ .
There is a similar conception to what Jesus taught in the notion of tikkun, found in esoteric Judaism .
We should carry on his legacy .
‘The son of man came to seek and to save that which was lost ‘, and that in the human mileu that which has potential to be good he is still trying to seek and to save…to be part of a new creation .For even individual salvation is secondary to a far greater task and goal , what the Jewish prophets of the Old Testament called
‘a new heavens and a new earth , wherein dwelleth righteousness’ .
Remember the story of Zaccheus in Luke 19:1-10 , the short man who climbed the sycamore tree and Jesus told him that he must stay at his house today .
Zaccheus told Jesus , ‘Lord , the half of my goods I give to the poor and if I have taken anything from any man I restore him fourfold ‘.
Jesus told him that, ‘ salvation has come to this house today , insamuch as he is also a son of Abraham . ‘
He then added , ‘For the son of man has come to seek and to save that was lost ‘ .
Jesus is still trying to seek and to save that which is lost today . His messianic role did not stop back in the 1st century .
We should all seek to cultivate the outlook of Zaccheus . Zaccheus makes a good role model for all of us today , Mr.Cevallos .
THE POST ABOVE RE-PRESENTED IN AN EDITED VERSION WITH TYPOS REMOVED AND BETTER SYNTAX
(In the text that appears below is a hopefully better text with better punctuation, spelling , important trasistional phrases that were left out of the post above. It uses the text above as a template and presents a reply with hopefully less typos) .
Well, Mr.Cevallos, I fear that even though you are NOT a fundamentalist, you are doing what I have noticed a lot of fundamentalists do using the word ‘context’ as a catch all , open ended term …
Jesus had *progressive revelation* happen to him . At first he thought that his mission was limited to the lost sheep of the house of Israel alone. But then there grew a dawning realization in him that he was to be the sort of Messiah who was to be not only for Israel , but also a ‘light unto the Gentiles’ –to use a turn of phrase from the Old Testament, Jewish prophetic writings .
He himself came to a fuller knowledge of the role he had in bringing order to all creation –in encountering people like the Greek woman whose daughter was reported to have been possessed with a devil (perhaps she was mentally disturbed, and the reference to a devil was but the “folk psychology” of the era… that the verse makes concession to) .
It is interesting the polite rebuttal that the woman says to Jesus when Jesus is at first seemingly not inclined to fulfil her request ,
‘Yes but the dogs eat of the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table ‘.
He also healed the servant of the Roman centurian: who had financed the building of the synagogue, and Jesus marvelled when he heard of how the Roman gentile centurian’s servant had conducted himself ,
‘I have not found such faith , not in Israel ‘ .
Yes, I to am inclined to also think that (much or perhaps all) of the Olivet Discourse when Jesus refers to a tribulation probably referred to the fall of Jerusalem to the Roman siege in A.D. 70 .
Nonetheless, the teachings of the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew , Mark, and Luke and the Christology found in John is just as valid and perennial a truth for today and all ages of human history as it was then . Jesus said ,
‘Heaven and earth shall pass away , but my words shall not pass away’ .
The teachings of Jesus which contain such ethical profundities , ethical profundities that are so sadly often glossed over by both Protestant Fundamentalism which is so preoccupied with crude notions of heaven and hell …the afterlife, and also glossed over by more prosaic and conservative factions within Roman Catholicism, and such profound ethical insights should be analytically studied .
For Jesus was, and is, a figure with great conceptually subtle insights into ethics …there is so much in his teachings that is seldom explored , in much of Western Christianity .
And Jesus did come to transform all creation , like Isaiah and John the Baptizer before him , he came to get people to , ‘prepare ye the highway of the Lord . Make his paths straight ‘.
‘Prepare’ and ‘make’ are active verbs , not passive verbs . They signify that we are *not* to wait around waiting for some apocalyptic Divine Intervention from out of the sky (like the dispensationalists mistakenly claim) , but, instead, to manifest the holy in the here and now…to bring the sacramental into daily life…to act to change the world . Jesus was indeed a culture jammer and an adversary of the status quo .
He taught that there can be an inbreaking into history of a kind of holiness, when people set out to bring it about .
‘What ye bind is bound in heaven ‘/’what you loose is loosed in heaven ‘ .
There is a similar conception to what Jesus taught in the notion of ‘tikkun’, found in esoteric Judaism .
We should carry on the legacy .
‘The son of man came to seek and to save that which was lost ‘, and that in the human mileu that which still has potential to be good, he is still trying to seek and to save…to be part of a new creation .
For even individual salvation is secondary to a far greater task and goal , what the Jewish prophets of the Old Testament called
‘a new heavens and a new earth , wherein dwelleth righteousness’ .
Remember the story of Zaccheus in Luke 19:1-10 ,Zaccheus was the short man, who climbed the sycamore tree and Jesus told him that he must stay at his house today .
Zaccheus told Jesus , ‘Lord , the half of my goods I give to the poor, and if I have taken anything from any man I restore him fourfold ‘.
Jesus told him that, ‘ salvation has come to this house today , insamuch as he is also a son of Abraham . ‘
He then added , ‘For the son of man has come to seek and to save that was lost ‘ .
Jesus is still trying to seek and to save that which is lost today . His messianic role did not stop back in the 1st century .
We should all seek to cultivate the outlook of Zaccheus . Zaccheus makes a good role model for us today …
How long will you be halted between two opinions?? Even Jesus recognized the forces of darkness and their rebellion. “And I beheld Satan fall as lightning from the sky.” (Luke 10:18) In Matthew 4, Mark 1,Luke 4 it gives clear evidence to support the existence of Satan.In Jude verse 9, “Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a railing(reviling)accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke you.” There is a similar passage of scripture in Zechariah 3:2. Why is this discourse still going on? Please, I beg of you, stop this quarrel. “But shun profane and vain babblings; for they will increase unto more ungodliness.” II Timothy 2:16
And my brothers and sisters, might I remind you that this confession that Carlton Pearson made is but one of many efforts of the Adversary to shroud the hearts and eyes of men in his deception. He is the father of lies, for he was a liar from the beginning. So I ask you now, don’t worry about Satan’s lies, just allow the gospel which is the truth of Jesus Christ shine and dispel the darkness through evangelism and the work of the Great Commission. It is NOT profitable for us to have meaningless quarrel about the “Opposer and Accuser of the brethern” and yet all the while taking our eyes and focus off of the mission and work of the Kingdom of God. And if you must quarrel, at least have this discourse in light of the gospel, so that those who are following this conversation are not being given the emptiness and vanity of man’s wisdom, theology or philosophy, but that they are given the power of God which is the gospel. “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes; to the Jew first and also to the Greek.” (Romans 1:16) Grace and peace be with you, my brothers and sisters in Christ!!
Nicolas ,
You are presupposing an *interpretation* of the following verse ,
“But shun profane and vain babblings; for they will increase unto more ungodliness.” II Timothy 2:16
Since the epistle of second Timothy does not give us a list of which statements are considered profane and vain babblings , you have no grounds to presume that the questions I have asked regarding the business about Satan are ‘vain and profane babblings ‘.
The “it’s implied ” routine does NOT make for right exegetics either , lest someone use that sort of dodge …
The references to so-called “man’s philosophy” are ANTI-intellectual and wrong .
After all, the term ‘logos’, which is the term that appears in the original Greek text in JOHN chapter I verse I (which has loosely been translated by the term ‘word’ refers to an organizing principle
not a literal spoken sound ,
and was a term used by the Greek philosophers , as the early church fathers apparently have noted. Paul in the sermon to the Greek Stoic and Epicurean philosophers on Mars Hill in the book of Acts indicated that the philosophical poets, prior to the Christian era had sound insights about God. Paul quoted them with *approval*, including the verse about how in God we ‘live , move, and have our being ‘ .
How about giving a direct answer to what I had asked , instead of glossing it over, like so many fundamentalists tend to do .?
How about giving a direct answer to the question : If Satan were to choose to NOT do the bad deeds (like sponsoring a beast, promting a tribulation period) which were predicted in the book of Revelation / if Satan were to choose to NOT fullfill the tragic events predicted that he would do …would the agenda of God be lost, or not ?
Please do not gloss over the question by claiming ‘well that’s not going to happen’ Satan is going to do what the prophecy predicts . For if Satan has free will, he could decide not to fullfil those predictions about him setting up a BEAST and so on and decide to deprive the prophecy buffs of the apocalypse and end times they are looking forward to by refusing to do the dramatic deeds ?
A follow up question —if Satan is behind the scenes waiting in the wings to sponsor a Beast , a tribulation , and an armageddon …shouldn’t we pray that God will convince him to CHOOSE to NOT fulfill those bad activities predicted in Revelation ?
Dispensationalist Fundamentalism weirdly portrays God as somehow needing help from the bad activity of Satan to get the Divine Agenda accomplished ? How weird the notion that God would somehow have something to lose IF Satan did NOT go and do the bad activities predicted .
Wouldn’t God be *just as reliable* if Satan were to *choose* to *never* do those tragic deeds predicted in the book of Revelation …such if Satan were to freely choose to *never* sponsor a BEAST leader, choose to *never* send people to fight in any armageddon ?
Some swerve that sort of question, by the peripheral sort of comment, which claims that Satan has somehow seared his conscience to where he has become devoted to doing bad . But if Satan has free will, then Satan could choose to UNsear his conscience , especially if God tried to persuade him to unsear his conscience …
Ok, The position of Satan is one that is the apostate. He is the father of sin. All sin is existent now because of Satan’s rebellion. He wants to exalt himself above the counsel and majesty of God. And this is his continual fixation. So because of the iniquity in the heart and mind of satan, he fell and still continues to fall down the perverted path of a reprobate mind. He sees wrong as right and right as wrong and there is nothing that will sway him from trying to get back at God by any means necessary.
He lost his former glory and perfection and that can’t be regained. He has free will but he chooses not to repent because of his pride. He feels as though he is better than God, and that he is much more worthy of being God, than God is. Why would we pray for an individual that has been mocking,scorning and blaspheming the name of our Lord and Savior since eternity past? And not only does he mock and scorn God but is a despiser of all good works and every thing that God designs. Satan himself doesn’t want repentance. Romans chapter 1 gives a clear depiction on what happens to an individual who indulges in sin. God grants all men grace toward repentance. But if an individual continues constantly to reject God, he will give them up to their carnality. God doesn’t make us do anything…we choose. So for God to somehow “appeal” to satan is a wasted effort since satan clearly doesn’t want to repent.
Repentance requires faith. “And without faith it is impossible to please God. Because he that comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that dilligently seek Him.” Satan doesn’t worship God, because in his own mind,Satan has exalted himself as God. The scripture says, “If I regard iniquity in my heart, then the Lord will not hear me.” God will never force an individual to change. It is because of Satan’s twisted mind and perverted character that makes him who he is. And I’m done talking about satan. If you message me back….we will DEFINITELY be glorying in Christ and in the glorious gospel that is the power and sustenance of our hope in Him. “Christ in you, the hope of glory!” Jesus is Lord!!!
To answer your question….No. Because of the sovereignty of God and his infinite wisdom, His plans cannot be thwarted. His agenda can never be lost. HE IS GOD! He is the Creator, and everything else in existence is breathed and inspired from His Word. Satan is blinded by his self-will.
That is why he couldn’t see all the prophecies that spoke of how the Messiah would be wiped with many stripes, mocked, scorned, spit upon, pierced,and killed by the Cross and how we (the sinners) would receive redemption and salvation by the atonement of His blood. He is the passover lamb, whose blood is sprinkled upon the lintel and doorpost of our heart so that the Wrath of God passes over us. Satan didn’t see any of it. The birth of Christ was foretold centuries before it actually happened. Satan’s rebellion played right into the redemption of mankind through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is the second Adam unto Life.
Even the prophecy, the very first prophecy of the Bible in Genesis 3:15, when God said to the serpent in the garden, “And I will enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise your head and you shall bruise His heel.” It was prophesied then that God would come from the seed of a woman (notice how God didn’t say seed of a man)and that through her seed that the serpent(Satan) would be utterly defeated. So you can see that God’s agenda can never be lost. He desires relationship with His creation. And whether Satan had chosen to rebel or not, God is still Adonai Yi’reh, the Lord our provider. He will not stand by and allow His creation to be separated from Him without a way back because He is Adonai Shammah, the Lord who is ever-present. He is Emmanuel,God with us. And He is Adonai Mekkadiskhem, the Lord our sanctifier who makes us pure through His blood. The garments of our spirit are made clean,yea, white as snow when they are dipped in the precious fountain flowing from Emmanuel’s vein. Sinners plunge beneath that flood and lose all their guilty stains.
Nicolas ,
Well God has infinite resourcefulness, does He not .? According to the book of Job , no purpose of God can be hindered .
Why should we pray that Satan repent —you ask ?
So that there will be NO more Satan sponsored, tragic events taking place…no more temptations, no more persecutions of Christians , that NO tribulation period would ever take place .
All those are bad activities , so it then follows, that if God persuades Satan to call it quits / to repent and no longer tempt people THEN THAT WOULD BE A GOOD RESULT .
Are you , sir, familiar with Psalm 7:9 where the author prays ,
‘Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end .’
Well if it was good, for the guy who wrote Psalm 7 to pray that the wickedness of the wicked to come to an end, then shouldn’t we pray that the wickedness of Satan should come to an end .? Furthermore, shouldn’t we pray that the wickedness of Satan come to an end today or in the next 24 hours, and *NOT after* some tribulation, when he does terrible things, nor after some literal 1,000 year period , but instead that the wickedness of Satan would *come to an end right now* ?
Does God have the ability to persuade someone like Satan who does not want to repent , to stop not wanting to repent …and start wanting to want to repent ? I’m NOT referring to God forcing Satan to repent. I never asked if God had the ability to force Satan to repent …that was NOT the question I asked .
Instead, I was wondering if God has the ability to persuade Satan to *freely choose* to repent? (since as you conceed Satan does still have free will and free will entails the potential to choose more than one course of action .
You mention that Satan has no faith in God and without faith it is impossible to please God .Well doesn’t God have the ability to get a being like Satan to choose to have faith even if he doesn’t have it at first .
Didn’t Jesus exhort his disciples to have faith in God, when there were times they lacked faith ? Isn’t faith itself something that God can plant in someone who lacks it ?
Let me ask you , would God have anything to lose if Satan were to choose to NOT do the bad actions that books like Revelation predict he would do ?
Would the agenda of God be lost if Satan decided to choose NOT to fulfill the predictions that he would sponsor a Beast , promote a tribulation and so on ?
God does NOT want Satan to do those actions that are predicted in Revelation like beheading Christians , leading armies from the East against Jerusalem , sponsoring a Beast —for those actions predicted are evil actions ?
Please give a direct answer , would anything be lost for God’s agenda, IF Satan decided to sit back and NOT fulfil the bad actions predicted of Satan in the book of Revelation ?
Wouldn’t God be just as reliable if Satan decided to never fulfil the bad actions predicted of Satan in the book of Revelation ?
If Satan freely chose to *never* fulfill those actions predicted in the book of Revelation —all those terrible activities like sponsoring a Beast , promoting a tribulation period where Christians are beheaded, would you be dissappointed with God ?
I certainly would *not* be disappointed with God, if those bad actions predicted of Satan were never fulfilled !
I would still think of God as *completely reliable*, even if Satan decided never to sponsor a Beast , decided never to fulfil any predictions of starting a tribulation ,or doing any of the bad deeds predicted in Revelation …and if no armaggedon ever happened because Satan chose not to participate !
I would not be the slightest bit dissapointed in God, if Satan decided …”well I’m not going to participate in fulfilling all those predictions of what I am going to do, I’m just going to sit back and do nothing “.
Would you be dissappointed in God , if Satan decided to sit back and not do what is predicted of Satan ?
Theories such as this seem very difficult to understand. A common question is whether the government is attempting to maintain calm among the populace while some openly question about the upcoming events. If this theory is accurate, we wonder who the people who are on the list will be.
Mr. or Mrs.Cherish Stamfa , which “list” and “upcoming events” are you referring to ?
The post you posted is puzzling …
You have pointed out some highly thought provoking SEM points that my partners and I were discussing, relieved I ran into it, so thank you for that.
Ok would you try to persuade a lying murder to not murder again in exchange for his freedom? Well of course he would agree, only to kill and lie again. And the very notion that you asked him not to murder again in exchange for freedom and absolution is bribery. God doesn’t bribe people. He is not a manipulator. I get the impression that you believe that all people, no matter what their decision was here on Earth, will be redeemed. That is NOT scripture. Only those who have accepted Christ will receive eternal life. Christ went to the grave once….He’s NOT going again. So those who reject Christ, accept for their eternal souls the stored up wrath and vengeance of God for sin which is eternal separation. This is not a game, its not virtual reality where if you die, you can just start over with infinite continues. If we don’t accept Christ’s redemption and salvation while we are on Earth, we will be doomed to suffer in eternity without it. Our prayers alone can do nothing. Only through the work of the Holy Spirit and a person’s acceptance of His work can a person change. Why would God try to persuade Satan to change His mind, when Satan constantly rejects and resents His counsel? HE DOESN’T WANT TO CHANGE!
One thing that you have to understand about prophecy is that it is often a mirror set parallel facing another mirror. Revelation is a great example of this. Often what you find in Revelation is that alot of the events that take place in Revelation have either both happened in the past and are taking place in the present as John is writing, or are taking place at that time and will take place in the future, or have taken place in the past, in John’s present day and will take place in the future. That is the sovereignty of the oracles that speak from the Word of God inspired by the Spirit of God.
No, God is eternally omniscient. If something didn’t happen that He has spoken to happen, heaven and earth itself would pass away. He says His Word will not return to Him void of completing that which He told to come to pass. Jesus said that it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one single mark i.e a period, comma, dot of the letter “i” etc to be done away with.
You are right, God isn’t pleased to see Satan plague the world with evil. But you must also realize that Satan doesn’t exist in the frame of mind we do. Satan’s mind is demented and twisted by the pride of his heart. Satan is only interested in seeing his image. Hence the fall of man. He saw that God created Adam in His image. So to strike back at God, satan caused the fall to place his image of rebellion in the face of God, reflecting the evils of blasphemy that are in his person.
While satan is on a conquest to pull the perfection of God out of everything and replace it with his own perverted image, God is allowing it, not because He doesn’t love us, but to remind us what it is like to live without His love. Satan is the epitome of an individual living without the love of God. He pleases himself and would rather watch the world burn then to see the selfish, destructive existence that he has become. He is in error and he knows he is in error, and yet still rejects the truth. Just like so many people.
In the truth of God’s word there is light. People would rather live in the complacency of darkness because light exposes darkness, and many people don’t want the secrets of their hearts exposed by the Word of God. So they reject Christ….and that He is Light and that His Light is Life.
The truth is that Satan has helped to fulfill scripture for over 4,000 years. What makes you think that he wants to opt out of the program? Satan deceives people, of course. But the Lord delivers from deception. The Lord wants to redeem everyone, but not every one wants to be redeemed. God persuades us and moves upon us to repent by His Word and by His spirit. Satan was Lucifer who lead the worship in heaven and was constantly in the presence of God and His Word, and yet still rebelled. After a person has come to the knowledge of the truth, then they are responsible to either accept or reject. Satan not only rejected God, but deceived others into rejecting God as well. Satan’s perverted heart caused him to fall and continue falling away from God. Repentance is when an individual is convicted of his/her actions because they accept the Word of God as truth and are willing to submit to it’s truth, leading them to turn away from their sin. Satan knows the truth of God’s Word, but he absolutely refuses to abide in truth. So he not only rejects the truth of God but he also deceives the hearts of men into reject God’s truth as well. The Adversary doesn’t view his actions as sin, so he continues to justify himself through pride to be without sin. That’s why he masquerades as an angel of light and dresses his false prophets as ministers of light. (II Cor 11:14)Fooling people into false conversion where “they profess that they know God, but in their works they deny Him, being abominable and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:16) “Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.” (Romans 1:21) But although Satan tries to prevail through deception, Jesus prophetically spoke that the gates of hell will not prevail against the foundation of what Peter said by the inspiration and revelation of the Holy Ghost when he said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God!”(Matthew 16:16) The adversary tries to gain victory through deceit and the seduction of temptation through the fallen nature. But it was prophesied in Genesis 3:15 that the seed of the woman which is Jesus Christ would bruise the head of the serpent. And this is all completed and confirmed in Revelation. God’s Word is settled in the heavens, it has already been established. The temporal realm of earth is governed by chronology. God is NOT. God’s will WILL be done, whether we are a part of it or not. HE is the Creator.
I don’t know why bing sent me to your blog but I might as well say I have been more or less fascinated by the posts you have patched together. How much effort did it take to end up with this many coming to your page? I am rather new to this web thing.
Hello Everyone. I’m glad to see that you are all wasting each others time by debating over issues that you really have no clue about. I took a long sabbatical with my buddy satan and now we are back. I would like to know if anyone of you saw satan in the past month. You Kirstie, did you see satan? How about you Nicholas, did you see satan? and you J, did you see satan?
People there is really a simply reason why none of you saw this “angel of destruction” and that reason is this: satan as a noun does not exist. satan as an adjective does(satan means adversary, enemy – go look it up in the dictionary).
Tell you what people, the first person that sends me a picture of satan will get ten million dollars from me. It’s got to be a clear, not fuzzy picture like those that show UFO’s, that show satan doing something bad. You people give this satan credit for bringing a lot of pain and sorrow to the world so there must a very good chance that you can capture him in all his glory in a picture or on video. Don’t dress up in red with horns, that won’t count. So if this satan exists you guys should be able to photograph him. Ok people. Let’s get to it.
NICHOLAS POSTED :Ok would you try to persuade a lying murder to not murder again in exchange for his freedom? Well of course he would agree, only to kill and lie again. And the very notion that you asked him not to murder again in exchange for freedom and absolution is bribery. God doesn’t bribe people. He is not a manipulator.
RESPONSE : First of all, I was envisioning a situation wherein Satan would NOT engage in a temporary hiatus from promoting temptation and evil deeds , but instead one where God would persuade him to completely reform himself . God is more resourceful and skilled at transforming the minds of other beings than a person would be, is He not ? Then God would potentially have the ability to eventually persuade Satan to freely choose to NO longer want to do evil or temp anyone at any time. Comparing the ability of God to influence someone (considering God is more resourceful) with that of the ability of a person (who is not infinitely resourceful) to influence some criminal is an apples and oranges comparison .
Furthermore, you are using the term ‘bribery’ rather loosely , sir . One caveat to consider is that you speak of God persuading Satan not to murder in exchange for absolution and freedom , is that the sort of “freedom” I ensvisioned for Satan would be a very LIMITED freedom , not the sort of unconditional freedom you were attributing to the scenario I mentioned , so you , sir, have misconstrued the scenario to some extent .
Moreover, if God were to spare Satan from endless torment in exchange for Satan repenting then that would not be bribery since there would be NO money nor other material incentives given him as a reward for such compliance . The term ‘bribery’ is used for financial incentives offered another person or being , you using the term ‘bribery’ for a scenario of God showing clemency to Satan in exchange for Satan making a commitment to stop promoting temptation and evil doing , is using the very word ‘bribery’ loosely .
Still another consideration that God being infinitely resourceful and skilled, could persuade Satan to FREELY CHOOSE to *avoid* doing the evil deeds predicted of Satan, EVEN IF Satan would never get any further pleasure , or would even eventually be confined to endless imprisonment at some point in the years to come , and get Satan to do so, by persuading Satan to have remorse for evil doing . You may , reply , something along the lines of ‘well Satan is too hardened by pride and sinfulness to want to have any remorse’ , yet God has infinite resourcefulness, so if God has infinite resourcefulness coouldn’t God then persuade Satan to one day choose to want to have authentic remourse even if Satan does not now want to have remorse ?
Which is to say, doesn’t God have the ability to persuade Satan to want to want something other than what he is naturally inclined to want ?
NICHOLAS POSTED :I get the impression that you believe that all people, no matter what their decision was here on Earth, will be redeemed. That is NOT scripture. Only those who have accepted Christ will receive eternal life. Christ went to the grave once….He’s NOT going again. So those who reject Christ, accept for their eternal souls the stored up wrath and vengeance of God for sin which is eternal separation. This is not a game, its not virtual reality where if you die, you can just start over with infinite continues.
RESPONSE: Well , sir, whether every human person one day finds redemption , and the other topic of whether God can persuade Satan to repent are something of a *separate issue*, and so we should not conflate them / mix them up but explore those two issues separately .
What I was wondering was does God have the ability to get Satan to repent .? , the issue of whether Jesus will eventually redeem every human person should be explored separately. There might be several scenarios in which God gets Satan to repent/stop tempting people . For example , God might get Satan to repent even without the offer of any clemency being shown to him in exchange for such clemency. God might persuade Satan to develop authentic remorse even if he never gets “off the hook” just by God persuading him one day to repent for the sake of repenting , not for anything in exchange for repenting . The alternate version of a scenario where Satan chooses to call it quits , would be one, wherefore , God does offer him some clemency in exchange for calling it quits but still does not give him free reign . In either case , the question of whether God can persuade Satan not to do the evil deeds persuaded of Satan , is a question that should be pondered separately of whether Jesus will eventually redeem every human person .
[But now that you mentioned it , St.Paul in Phillipians 2:10-12 , apparently predicted that 'every toungue would confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the Glory of The Father ' . Notice that the verse says 'to the glory of God the Father. St.Paul alos maintained that no one can confesss that Jesus is Lord except by the Spirit , then if that prediction comes to pass , then every person would have to one day be influenced by the Spirit of God to make that confession . If every person in history is sooner or later eventually influenced by the Spirit of God to make the confession that Jesus is Lord, than how could they be influenced to do that without being morally reformed / and redeemed somehow .
The statement in John , 'no man cometh to the Father but by me ' , could just as well be interpreted as that sooner or later every person must go through Jesus on the way to the Father . The group of people who do not come to the Father by Jesus might one day be a group emptied of all actual members .
The 'no man cometh to the father but by me' could plausibly be interpreted that every person sooner or later would have to find Jesus on the way to the Father , instead of the usual fundamentalist interpretation ] .
NICHOLAS POSTED :If we don’t accept Christ’s redemption and salvation while we are on Earth, we will be doomed to suffer in eternity without it. .
RESPONSE: Many fundamentalists have claimed the verse in the epistle to the Hebrews states that ‘it is appointed unto men once to die and after that cometh judement ‘ , that somehow means that if a person cannot have any opportunity after bodily death to find redemption , yet if one looks at the verse more closely , one finds that it does NOT say that the judgement takes place immediately after death . The word ‘immediately’ does not appear in the verse .]
NICHOLAS POSTED : Why would God try to persuade Satan to change His mind, when Satan constantly rejects and resents His counsel? HE DOESN’T WANT TO CHANGE!
RESPONSE: Because the evil deeds predicted of Satan are horrible , undesirable deeds so it would be better if they never came to pass . God (being that He infinitely good) would NOT want the evil deeds that are predicted that Satan to ever happen and so , persuading Satan to *not* ever do those evil deeds predicted of Satan would be a good outcome . If he doesn’t want to change , since when is the desire that Satan has not to ever change , something that God must honor ? God cherishes goodness more than he does the present desire of Satan to continue doing what is wrong . So God would consider the good outcome that would come from persuading Satan to freely choose to *cancel* the evil deeds Satan had been initially desiring to do , more important than respecting the present desire of Satan to keep on doing evil deeds, wouldn’t He, Nicholas ?
NICHOLAS POSTED :No, God is eternally omniscient. If something didn’t happen that He has spoken to happen, heaven and earth itself would pass away. He says His Word will not return to Him void of completing that which He told to come to pass. Jesus said that it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one single mark i.e a period, comma, dot of the letter “i” etc to be done away with.
RESPONSE: Well, isn’t there a difference between (A) the events predicted in scripture that God does *not* want to happen and (Z) the events predicted in scripture that God *does* want to happen ?
Yes, God wants (Z) the good events predicted in scripture to happen , but as for (A) the evil events in scripture , God would NOT want to happen and would be delighted if they never came to pass .
Consider that the evil events prophecized in scripture (such as Satan sponsoring a Beast , a mark of the Beast, a tribulation where Christians are persecuted, an armageddon) could be what is called a worse case scenario . God facilitating a prophecy which predicts an evil event one day happening is NOT the same as somehow ordaining it to happen . Consider the following analogy : a criminologist who studies the social patterns condusive to crime waves , could predict that… given present trends continuing …that a crime wave next year will happen in some particular area, yet if he is virtuous would not want the prediction of the crime wave to come to pass, and would not be dissapointed if it did not come to pass .
Likewise, God being infinitely virtuous, would *not* be at all dissapointed if the evil events predicted that Satan would one day do , never came to pass, and Satan chose to never fulfil the evil events predicted in the prophecy .
The verse in Isaiah about his Word not returning to Him void until it is accomplished refers to predictions of what God Himself wants to have happen , it does *NOT* refer to those predicted events that God does not want to happen !
Consider the prospect that the verse in Revelation chapter 1 which speaks of ‘the things that must come to past’, whether the word ‘must’ in that verse refers to a *situational* use of the word ‘must’ and *not* to the use of the word ‘must’ (in the predetermined sense of the word ‘must’) .
NICHOLAS POSTED :You are right, God isn’t pleased to see Satan plague the world with evil. But you must also realize that Satan doesn’t exist in the frame of mind we do. Satan’s mind is demented and twisted by the pride of his heart. Satan is only interested in seeing his image. Hence the fall of man. He saw that God created Adam in His image. So to strike back at God, satan caused the fall to place his image of rebellion in the face of God, reflecting the evils of blasphemy that are in his person.
RESPONSE: Well, might Satan decide to become tired of acting on the twisted and demented pride of his heart ? Isn’t it possible Satan might become *jaded and disillusioned* with acting on that pride, and decide *instead* to satisfy the curiosity of finding out what would happen IF he were to decide to *stop* acting on that pride of his heart, and try something new for a change ???
Take someone who has been trading insults with an adversary and decides after he becomes jaded with doing that, to try something new (on a lark) , just to explore what would happen if he were to instead of insulting his adversary back , say , “yep that’s right” or just stand there and nod his head while the other person made the insults . Might Satan , likewise, just decide to not be so typical and do all the usual events predicted of him , out of a desire just to witness the novelty of stopping acting in a way that is so typical ?
(I recall when I was back in junior high years, when some classmates insulted and mocked me , I decided to laugh …because at times I actually found the the contents of the insults and mocking statements rather funny . When I did so laugh , it often would suprise the people who mocked me with insults and they would often exclaim “you cut him down and laughts at it ! ” , with somewhat stunned suprise . Might Satan then one day develop a similar mental dynamic, to want to one day witness what would happen if he decided not to participate in any more warfare with God, and just sit back and receive the denunciations from God *without* even trying to retaliate any more , just to explore the novelty of *refusing* to strike back ?)
NICHOLAS POSTED :While satan is on a conquest to pull the perfection of God out of everything and replace it with his own perverted image, God is allowing it, not because He doesn’t love us, but to remind us what it is like to live without His love.
RESPONSE : Now, that above , sir, is quite an interesting statement . Let us explore that . Would the state of affairs of living WITH the love of God be somewhow lacking if people did *not* have the contrast of being reminded of what it is like to live without his love ? If so, then why ?
One would think that experiencing the love of God would be so superlative that a person wouldn’t even need the contrast of knowing what it feels like to live without it . To suggest that a person in order to savor the love of God one would have to witness some contrast of what is like to be without it, seems to suggest that the experience is somehow lacking in itself , if it requires such a contrast to make it more worthwhile, or more savored .
NICHOLAS POSTED :Satan is the epitome of an individual living without the love of God. He pleases himself and would rather watch the world burn then to see the selfish, destructive existence that he has become. He is in error and he knows he is in error, and yet still rejects the truth. Just like so many people.
In the truth of God’s word there is light. People would rather live in the complacency of darkness because light exposes darkness, and many people don’t want the secrets of their hearts exposed by the Word of God. So they reject Christ….and that He is Light and that His Light is Life.
RESPONSE : Even if Satan never came to love God ,then couldn’t he still decide to find out what would happen if he chose to NO longer display hatred for God ?
NICHOLAS POSTED :The truth is that Satan has helped to fulfill scripture for over 4,000 years. What makes you think that he wants to opt out of the program?
RESPONSE: Well, fundamentalists are fond of saying that Satan is so resourceful and clever ..some sort of mentally keen, skilled opponent. If he is really as sharp as some would claim , he wouldn’t be so daft as to fall into the lure of doing what is so typical as fullfilling the evil events predicted of him . Think what would happen if he were to choose to refuse to sponsor a Beast, if he were to choose to *not* send armies to an Armageddon battle .
Might there be a strange win/ win situation in Satan choosing to not participate in that war with God any more for all concerned . Satan if he were to choose to refuse to do the evil deeds predicted of Satan in Revelation, could enjoy the sort of joy of not acting or reacting in the blase , typical way that the prophecy predicted he would . God and humanity would win the state of affairs of horrible evil events predicted in Revelation never coming to pass , though the good events that God wants to happen could then still come to pass without the evil events ever coming to pass .
So the question for you, sir, is as follows :
would anything be lost if Satan decided to choose to avoid doing the evil deeds that the prophecies predict Satan will do ?
Shouldn’t we as people want for Satan to choose to *never* do the bad deeds predicted of him in the book of Revelation ?
Ok sir one question for you is….why are you trying to explain the supernatural by means of logic or philosophy? You keep asking the same question and I keep giving you the same answer. Satan had a choice to accept the status that he was created in orchestrating the worship of heaven. But he rejected God and seeks to exalt himself as God. I really suggest that you focus more on the kingdom of heaven and not on the forces that oppose it. Of course, we as born again children of light and love do not want any one to be lost….not even Satan. If you’re gonna keep picking random, unrelated segments from my comments then I will stop now. I must ask…are you arguing just for the sake of arguing or are you genuinely curious? I’m pretty sure that if you actually pay attention to what I’ve said already in my previous comments but more importantly deny yourself and exalt the Word of God as the only profitable source of knowledge and do the work of the kingdom in winning souls for Christ. I’d love to continue this conversation if we were exalting the name of Christ but we are instead analyzing eschatological perspectives and philosophies. Be blessed my brothers and sisters in the Lord! Jesus is Lord!!
Nicholas, I think that you are now beginning to get it. J is arguing just for the sake of arguing. J has no point. He’s just toying with you and the rest of you who chose to engage him in these mindless and ridiculous exchange of comments.
By the way, satan is very happy with you all. He thinks that you are all a bunch of mindless drones that have nothing better to do with your time. You people keep arguing about the validity of this satan dude and yet you learn nothing new. All you people have is a book that has been edited and re-edited to fit the scheme of the great whore ‘the roman catholic church’.
Keep up your mindless chatter. Me and satan will just continue to laugh at your mindless chatter.
Do yourselves a favor, don’t rely on a book(bible) that is not the same book that people from 2000 years ago were reading. Keep in mind that the bible that you hold so dear to your heart has been translated and re-translated to fit the ideas of which ever denomination you belong to.
Religion is the cause of all evil that goes on in the world. Stop blaming things on a caricature that does not exist. You alone are to be blamed for the sorrow and pain that people endure in this lifetime.
Peace and love, from arthur and satan.
Arthur, why are you trying to persuade me that the
Word of God has no validity? You may think that the Bible is not right but what about the history and evidences of the Bible’s events that have shaped the course of human archaeology, artifacts, etc? Religion is not the cause of evil in this world. The evil in this world is caused by sin and the perverse nature of carnality that dwells within the hearts of men. You make a mockery of scripture and pridefully exalt yourself above the knowledge of God. Why?? I pray that the Spirit of the Lord opens your eyes to see the truth, that you might turn from your idols and to the Lord Jesus Christ. Be blessed and may you prosper in all godliness and in the wisdom and peace of the resurrected Lord!
Nick
Mr.Cevallos ,
I am not toying with anyone , nor am I arguing for the sake of arguing . The questions I am asking Nicholas are completely in earnest !
They are quite interesting questions which are apparently seldom asked in exchanges about the interpretation of the Bible .
One would think you would find the area of inquiry fascinating , and I am puzzled by the dismissive reponse you give Mr.Cevallos .
Please, can you PM me additionally tell me few much more thinks about this, I’m truly fan of the blog…
I’m still hoping that someone will directly answer the following question : what would be lost if Satan were to freely choose NOT to do the evil deeds that the book of Revelation predicted of Satan ?
Would anything be lost for God, if Satan chose *not* to fulfill the bad deeds predicted in the book of Revelation/if Satan chose to sit back and do nothing (NOT sponsor any Beast/ NOT start any tribulation) ?
Those questions above are earnest questions : I am NOT toying with anyone , contrary to what Mr.Cevallos has claimed .